Episode 462 of The Drunken Odyssey, your favorite podcast about creative writing and literature is available on Apple podcasts, stitcher, spotify, or click here to stream (right click to download, if that’s your thing).

In this week’s episode, I speak with the poet Denise Duhamel about her latest book, Second Story, how to approach the long poem, the empathy gap in American life, and the Jungian concept of the necessity of play.

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